Shooting - Bill Jordan - Jelly Bryce -
Colonel Rex Applegate - Jim Gregg
Point Shooting Definied
History Of Point Shooting
Why Master The Skill Of Point
Choice of Weapons:
Small Revolvers , Large Revolvers , Small Automatics , Large Automatics
Tall" vs the "Gunman's Crouch" <--NEW
THE POINT SHOOTING
How To Practice Point Shooting Techniques
Books On Point Shooting
Point Shooting is generally recognized as the skill of
discharging a firearm quickly, usually a hand-gun, in self defense, with minimial or no
use of the sights on the gun. While this skill always works good in the movies, especially
cowboy movies, in order to point-shoot well in real life and death situations, a certain
amount of self-education or formal training is required, along with as much practical
practice as possible. While fast draw may be considered by the uneducated to be the same
as point shooting, it is in fact an entirely different animal. Fast draw should not
be of primary consideration to those who truly wish to master point shooting for real life
practical self defense in genuine life and death situations. In practicing point
shooting, being quick on the draw will
come, but should be secondary to point shooting itself.
History And Background
Of Point Shooting:
Some gunfighters of
the old west used point shooting techniques but very little is available to document this.
E. A. Sykes and W. E. Fairbairn, once of the Shanghai Municipal Police before the Japanese occupation,
are generally acknowledged as the fathers of modern point shooting development and Colonel
Rex Applegate of the military's Office of Strategic Intelligence (OSS - Precusor of the
CIA) is credited with documenting and bringing it into popular use for clandestine
military operations. Many books
are available that paraphrase their work, at great length in fact, in promoting the art of
point shooting during WWII training of OSS agents. Throughout this time however,
point shooting was practiced by shooting advocates in law enforcement. One of the pinnacle
schools of police shooting has taught by Jim Gregg, author of "The Gregg Method of
Fire Control". In this method, a solid two handed stance is used and the pistol
is brought up into a zone while the eyes are locked on the target threat. This is
classic police practice to hold a gun on a suspect without using the sights which take
away from the ability to detect the suspect doing something threating. More can be
learned about Jim Gregg at http://www.jimgregg.net
Master The Shooting Discipline Of Point Shooting?
In a nut-shell, real gun fights happen in low light
conditions, at very close ranges. Things happen so quickly in a real life threatening
situation, that citizens, soldiers, and police find that skills learned in the formal
target shooting arena have evolved more to provide shooting range safety than deadly force
in self defense. In real shoot-outs, people automatically assume fighting stances
that are contrary to formal target shooting. Point Shooting instead takes advantage
of these natural physiological reactions of the human body, and is thus based on fighting stances that the human animal will
automatically assume when challenged and threatened.
Note: Two Handed
Stance Resulted In No Kills!! Please let us know if anybody can verify if any persons
were hit but protected by body armor.
When Armed Militants 24-year-old Chevie Kehoe and
20-year-old Cheyne Kehoe were pulled over by the Ohio Highway Patrol, the two suspected
murderers came out shooting. Remarkably, nobody was killed or wounded, but the two
very bad guys got away and were at large for a long time.
See QuickTime Video
small file - large file
non quick time video to come
Jelly Bryce & Bill Jordan of the Border Patrol - "Gunman's Crouch" and
Note weak hand used for balance. Point shooting accuracy is a delicate art that comes with
practice and the right gun and technique.
Real Gun Fights Happen At Close Range!
Colonel Rex Applegate In Point
(Note Knees Bent - Eyes On Target - Not Pistol)
authors note: Bend either knee slightly as you swing-up and gently
"jab" with pistol. Bending the knee brings the shooter down to the line of the
DON'T TRY THIS WITHOUT PROPER
TRAINING AND A PROPER LARGE BANK TO SHOOT AT IN A SAFE ENVIRONMENT.
Colonel Rex Applegate
Fighting Dagger Developed By
W. E. Fairbairn and E. A. Sykes
| Choice of Weapon:
In order to Point Shoot effectively, one is best served to
practice point shooting with the weapon they will be using in a real situation. What
is essential to recognize, is that different guns of various styles and configurations,
provide significantly different results when used for Point Shooting. Generally
speaking, any pistol will work. However know that different guns, when fired quickly
without focused use of the sights, will impact very differently at the target due to
differences in weight, recoil, and probably most importantly, the ergonomics of the
pistol's design. People are built differently too. A firearm that one man can
quickly master for the purposes of point shooting, may be ineffective for another equally
skilled shooter. For practical purposes, stick with one style of gun for the
purposes of point-shooting. The gun or type of gun should be the one you'll most likely
have with you in a life threatening situation.
notes on point shooting: *
notes on point shooting are based on limited experimentation
performed by the author. You results may, and
probably should vary, depending
on your choice
of weapon, and your individual physical characteristics.
|Snub Nose Revolvers:
The authors experiments with small framed S&W
revolvers, like the Chief's Special and J Frame revolvers, proved that they are some of
the most effective point shooting pistols. The pistols, when provided with older
style original S&W wooden grips, provide consistent accurate grouping when utilized
for one handed point shooting. When used with the newer style rubber grips, the guns are
less effective for the sake of
accuracy when used for point-shooting.
S&W Model 36 with S&W wood grips
Photo Courtesy Of The Armed Citizen
Click Link For More Info On S&W Model 36
|Full Size Revolvers:
The standard and larger K Framed S&W revolvers,
while more accurate than the snub nose revolvers at aimed fire, are much less effective
for the purposes of point shooting than the snub nose revolvers. In point shooting
practice, the medium size S&W pistols tend to lay fire very high and bit to the
left. It it the authors opinion that much practice would be required to master
effective one handed point shooting with such a revolver, if mastering point shooting with
such a weapon is in fact possible. Such a weapon however, may prove to work well for different people, or for two handed
point shooting use.
S&W Model 66 "K" Frame Size Pistol
|Small Frame Automatics
Experiments with military model small frame
automatics yielded poor results overall for the author. Shots were very unpredictable,
except at very very close range. However, considering their intended design and
rapid fire rate, small frame automatics may be acceptable for close range self-defense. Note reports of Keltec's
producing good results.
Makarov And Other Small Automatics
Yielded Poor Point Shooting Results
|Large Frame Automatic Pistols:
Large frame automatic pistols yielded various
results. It is with the automatic that small differences in the gun's design become
very significant for the purposes of point-shooting.
For the authors experiences in practicing point shooting,
the 1911A1 model produces better results than the standard 1911 design. Note the subtle
differences in the designs of the two old fine pistols. Raising the backstrap
changes the pointing attributes of the gun significantly for the purposes of point
In addition to government model differences, most pistols,
including newer 1911 style pistols, tend to be slightly thicker than the old G.I. pistols
which will also vary the pointing characteristics significantly.
In general, the larger automatics work very well for point
shooting, but considerable patient
practice is necessary. The gun should be raised from below and pointed at the
target, rather than held in the air and lowered at the target. The large automatics
will work fine for point shooting, and an additional advantage of the large frame
automatic is the high volume of firepower than may be delivered very quickly to the
Note that WWII G.I. vets report that the Luger, with it's
different geometry and light weight front-end, may point-shoot best when pointed at a
target from the raised position rather than from the pointed down position. This may be similar for the Nazi P38's as
well as the U.S. Military Beretta 9mm which is based on the Nazi P38 design.
1911 - Flat Back Strap
1911-A1 - Raised Back Strap, Index Finger Cut
Send me your point shooting experiences with all kinds of
pistols, and I'll post the results here.
"Standing Tall" Vs.
"Folding in" to the Gunman's Crouch vs "Locking In" to the classic
Jelly Bryce uses Gunman's Crouch, while
Bill Jordan uses classic lawman attitude; standing tall. Applegate uses a slight crouch
which is more useful for continued movement during a shootout and brings his 1911 45
automatic into a "sight plane" without actually using the sights to maximize
accuracy. Jim Gregg uses a solid two handed aggressive stance.
Try all methods to see what works for you. All methods are fast and deadly with
proper practice and training.
|Bill & Nancy Marrs email@example.com
I shoot IPSC with a Glock 35, and often on close targets I find myself point
shooting. Works well, and the Glock grip seems to be "on target" better than the
1911, at least in my hands. Several years ago I did a bit of experimentation in point
shooting, using 9" paper plates at 12 ft range as targets. One handed, raise the gun
to waist level or so and fire. Guns tried: S&W J frames, mdls 32,34,36. with both
stock and aftermarket grips, S&W 4" mdl 19, Beretta Tom cat, Bersa 32 acp,
Makarov, Ruger Govt Target .22 , Colt New Service , 5", in 38 WCF, Keltec P32, 1911A1
45 govt model. The winner? The gun, that in my hands, would put them all in the
paper plate, time after time? Keltec P32. Kind of a suprise. YMMV
||KelTec has terrible sights, but may be worth investigation. Watch our for
Photo courtesty of The Sight
From: anony mous firstname.lastname@example.org
Tom, I have two stories,
both of them police-involved shootings (LAPD).Both took place in the early 1970's, and
with .38 special revolvers. The first incident involved an officer who was an outstanding
shooter on the target range, and had been awarded a "Distinguished Expert" pin.
The officer (his first name was Victor) and his partner were about to approach a
suspicious person who had been hanging around a shopping center where several armed
robberies had taken place. As they approached, the suspect turned and drew a revolver from
his waistband. At the time, Victor was the only officer who had a clear shot, and he
reacted quickly....but his first round hit the ground directly in front of his own shoe!
Round #2 hit about half-way between Victor and the suspect. Round #3 went between the
suspects legs. Round #4 was a hit, striking the suspect in his lower abdomen, and round #5
was also a hit, in the "10 ring" of the suspects torso. I mentioned that Victor
was quick, and indeed he was, for he fired his first three rounds before the suspect was
able to fire one round (the suspects only round struck the ground near the half-way mark).
Victor's #4 shot was deemed to have caused the suspect to lurch slightly forward, but was
not a fatal wound. Round #5 was fatal. The distance between Victor and the suspect was
less than 7 feet. I worked with Victor shortly after that shooting incident, and we
discussed it at length. He said that his adrenal system probably caused him to
"nervously" fire the first 3 rounds prematurely, before he was able to even
realize that he had missed. He also stated that he had never practised close-in
"point shooting" techniques.
The second shooting involved a "rookie" officer
(first name Benny), who had a Black Belt in Karate. Benny and his partner spotted a man
who closely resembled a suspect who had committed several armed robberies, and they
approached him to investigate. The suspect was, at first, very passive and cooperative,
and allowed Benny to perform a standing "cursory" search (the suspect had his
back to the officer during the search, with his hands on the back of his head). Well, when
Benny moved his left hand around to the suspects waistband front, the suspect lurched
forward and dropped his hands to his waistband. Benny's martial arts training came in
handy, for he immediately pushed the suspect away from him and dropped down to a combat
stance. The pushing of the suspect caused the suspect to be off-balance, but he was able
to pull a 9mm pistol from his waistband and fire one round while running forward, trying
to regain his balance. The round went high, above Benny's head. Benny drew his revolver
and "point shot" from his lowered combat stance. The "point shoot"
placement was at the suspects torso, but it struck a bit high....at the base of the
suspects skull, which was fatal. The distance between Benny and the suspect proved to be 8
feet when Benny fired his ONLY round. Sadly, those two rounds weren't the only rounds
fired during that incident, for Benny's partner fired SIX rounds.....all misses! I can't
really "defend" Benny's partner, but have to explain that he had proned-out on
the hood of the police car when he fired all of his rounds.....a somewhat awkward shooting
position, since it wasn't in any of the police academy training. I was involved in 2
shootings during my 31 years in law enforcement, but neither of them utilized "point
shooting". I have, however, practised the technique through the years, and often
include what I call the "cradle fall", which consists of crouching down and
falling back while point shooting at a close-in target. I got the idea of adding that to
my routine after seeing a re-enactment of an off-duty officer who was involved in a
shoot-out inside a bank. The reason why that officer crouched down and fell backward was
due to his gun having jammed on the first round. He later explained that he thought that
he was going to die, and was trying to make himself a smaller target to the bank robber.
While he was on his back, the officer was able to clear the jam, then fire two rounds that
proved to be fatal to the suspect.....and those rounds were fired from the officers
"cradled" (more of a scrunched-up fetal position) on the ground. It take
practise, and making sure that your legs aren't in the way of the muzzle!
Notes on Large Frame, Large Caliber,
Single Action Pistols
I first started point shooting in 1987. At the time I did not even know there was a
name for the technique. I had recently moved to Kansas, and was trying to enjoy my first
pheasant season. Prior to that time, I lived in the mountains of Virginia, and only used
my shotgun for deer hunting. I soon realized an important difference: when deer hunting
you wait for the shot whether rifle, pistol, shotgun, or bow... but when bird hunting, you
just can't wait for the shot. If you do, you have no shot and a very disappointed
bird-dog. I was beginning to think about ways to make a quicker shot, and so I joined a
clay-trap club to get some out-season practice. I was watching another member shoot one
day, and unconsciously began to track the clay-pigeons with my index finger, trying to
lead them mentally as they flew. I decided that I could do the same thing with my
shotgun... if I could point a finger at the target without effort, I reasoned that I could
point a gun in the same way. When I tried it with my Browning .16 ga, I was delighted at
how well it worked.
Later on, I decided to try the same thing with my Ruger p-89 9mm pistol. I was not as
immediately pleased. I found that the anticipation of the action, and the light weight of
the pistol, caused me to throw everything high and left. I began experimenting with my
other handguns and had great results with my Smith&Wesson .32-long revolver. I would
never consider a .32-long as a defense weapon however, since it is so underpowered. Now,
let me say, I am quite a large man... I am 6'5'' and 275 lbs. I have no trouble at all
handling large handguns. I decided that if I was going to bother to develop my skill at
point shooting, then I must become proficient with a weapon of sufficient size and power.
I developed a training plan for myself which I will describe in the next paragraph.
I had a pair of Ruger single-six .22 long revolvers, and I decided to start with one of
them. Being such a light and accurate weapon, I was able to master point-shots on a triple
(3-inch bell) spinner target at around 40 feet in just under a week. I next began using a
revolver that belonged to one of my friends. He had a Ruger security-six .357mag. After
about 3 weeks, I was able to master it at 40 feet using .38 specials, and it took less
than a week to get a grip on .357 rounds after having such a familiarity with the weapon.
Next came my final challenge. I began to use my Ruger super-blackhawk new model hunter .44
mag at a range of about 30-40 feet. I started using .44 specials since they had less
recoil and were cheaper to waste in training. At this point I was mainly trying to judge
the strength required and applied to point shoot a handgun which was relatively heavy. As
I said, I am a large strong man, and as such have little trouble quickly wielding and
firing my blackhawk with one hand. I moved up to using .44 mags in my revolver in less
than 2 weeks, and within another week was consistently point shooting soda cans at a range
of 40 feet. I was hitting the cans at about 7 out of 10 at that time. That was was several
years ago, and now I can sometimes get 10 out of 10 at 40 ft range, but never get less
than 8 out of 10 at the same range.
I can highly recommend a large frame revolver for point shooting, provided you are strong
enough. I would not recommend it to any individual shorter than 6 feet and less than 200
lbs. You may find an easier training-adjustment if you choose a double action revolver,
but such was not the case with me. I found that shooting double-action with my
Smith&Wesson model 29 was a problem because of the long trigger-pull which required me
to begin the trigger pull just as I drew the weapon. I had much better results with my
super-blackhawk single-action .44 mag. It is much easier for me to work the hammer on the
way up from draw to target, than it is to stretch a trigger-pull throughout the whole
length of the draw.
I hope this is useful to you and thank you,
Elliott C. Baker
How To Practice Point Shooting
1. Stand close to a bank so shots stay on the range; not in the air and not in
the grass. When shooting at objects, clay birds, and cans on dirt, when you miss,
the puff of dust in the dirt shows where you did hit.
2. Try different guns.
3. Move slowly.
4. Bend Knees; try to lower your
body a bit as you raise the gun. Think of it as "folding" into a solid position.
Lower your body as your raise the gun for the gunman's crouch or Applegate
5. Use small caliber guns of
simliar configuration as your carry gun when practical for the sake of economic practice.
22 conversion kits for your favorite carry pistol are ideal.
6. Practice a lot.
7. Move back farther as you
8. Don't get in a rut. Try one
handed, two handed, spin and shoot when you cross a line etc.
9. BE CAREFUL. Go slowly.
Technique and muscle memory come FIRST, speed must come on it's own with CAREFUL
10 If your gun has a safety. USE
12. NEVER holster a live gun
quickly or with your finger on the trigger! Set the safety and holster it SLOWLY.
General Patton once shot himself holstering a pistol. IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU TOO!!
Pictures To Be Posted Soon
Good Books On
|Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back
author: Michael D. Janich and Col. Rex Applegate
Book has good photographs showing point shooting techniques. Authors have actual
experience training many people in techniques using modern weapons. While book is a
bit dry at first, I keep finding myself returning to it again and again for review.
Available from Paladin Press, Amazon.com, and gun sales events.
|No Second Place Winner
author: Bill Jordan
This is a neat book with lots of cool stories about shoot-outs down on the Tex-Mex border
regions. Although he didn't characterize himself as such, Bill Jordan was a master
of very solid hard shooting point-shooting technique and one can learn a great deal from
his writings. Has good information on pistol technique and holster design that's
useful today to people really interested in shooting good guns well. This is one
you'll probably read at least twice.
|Jelly Bryce: Legendary Lawman (Hardcover)
by Ron Owens
Jelly Bryce was from the Oklahoma Territory in the days of the the gangsters. This local
rough town policeman turned FBI agent, firearms instrucctor, and special agent in charge.
He was such a good shot, that he spent much of his career training and showing-off
to promote the FBI.
|Kill Or Get Killed
author: Col. Rex Applegate
THE handbook for modern "urban" close combat self-defense. Shows attack
and defense techniques with different types of small arms. A must have for your
shooting library. A book you will look at again and again. Has lots of riot
control information for police use.
|Jim Gregg's method of Fire Control for Point Shooting
Classic American Style Fire Control method it well documented in this exciting
Available at Jim Gregg's website. Jim also offers training through his website.
Email For Comment Or More Information
Real Gun Fights Happen At Close Range!
You Don't Have To Be A Cowboy!